Sunday, August 11, 2013

"But all the apostles were not dead/martyred during 30-70 AD" - answering a futurist objection, and more.

Friends,

"But all the apostles were not dead/martyred during 30-70 AD", say my futurist friends who find it hard to accept that the millennium ended in 70 AD. 

They refer to:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[All the scripture citations are from KJV, however all the links take you to 4 versions: KJV, ESV, NIV and YLT]

They argue that if the millennium was the short period which ended in 70 AD, then the apostles of Jesus were not dead (beheaded) till the fag end of that period. They also say that apostle John was alive much after 70 AD.

I do not want to disprove them with the dates of the deaths of James, Peter or Paul. None of the dates available need to be accurate.

Let me tell in the outset that their thinking is carnal.


Death & Resurrection


They do not understand death and resurrection. For them death is biological or clinical death. For them resurrection is when the dead body receives life and stands up (Oh! some of them even have some Greek phrase for that, but, poor me, I am not a Greek scholar).

I, with, Apostle Paul, affirm that death and resurrection are not the death and resurrection of the human body.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Col 2:12 buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of god, who hath raised him from the dead
(Please comprehend the entire 2nd chapter of the epistle to Colossians)

I am not sure how many of the professing Christians have realized that baptism signifies death along with Christ and and resurrection along with Him.

If my futurist friends agree that the baptism is death and resurrection along with Christ, were they physically, clinically dead while they were baptized?

If you understand that baptism is death and resurrection with Christ, can you still hold on to the argument that the apostles were not physically dead during 30-70 AD?

Can anyone prove that the apostles were not living as though dead unto the world (Col 2:20), post Pentecost, when their baptism was complete with the receiving of the Holy Spirit?

Of course, there are references to apostle Peter moving around with his wife (1Co 9:5), but remember, even Peter's wife also became a martyr for Christ according to early church historians Clement of Alexandria and Eusebius. They state that Peter rejoiced while his wife was led away to be executed, because of her early summons from the Lord (not that it was a good riddance for him).

My point is: the apostles lived their lives as though they were dead to the world, in the newness of life.


Reigning for a 1000 years with Christ, whose call is it?


Me and you sitting with a Computer or a mobile device and spending our time debating on Facebook/Google+/Twitter/Blogger want to claim the rights to reign with Christ a 1000 years! But let us look at the verse from Rev 20 again.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Sitting in front of my Computer, typing this into Facebook / Blogger, I am not beheaded! Are you? (My 60-70% bald head is intact)

Let us ask ourselves honestly whether even the following scripture can be applied to us:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Can we honestly say that we are suffering by debating on Facebook/Google+/Twitter/Blogger? (if losing a bad debate or someone exposing your folly is not counted as "suffering").


To whom was the right to sit on the THRONES and JUDGING was given?


Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
If these passages are applicable to every Christian then why only 12 thrones? Are there not billions of Christians who want to reign with Christ?

No, 12 is not symbolic, because the number of tribes of Israel is not symbolic.

Frankly, my friend, the right to sit on 12 thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel are given to the 12 apostles of Christ, not to us!

Most of those who believe in Fulfilled Eschatology, believe that the judgement of Israel is done in 70 AD and the Apostles were part of it. We are not going by carnal thinking (detailed above).


How about 2Ti 2:12?


One may ask: then how about 2Ti 2:12? Will not non-apostles reign in the Kingdom? Yes, of course.

For some reason, many do mix (confuse) the 1000 year reign of Christ with the eternal Kingdom of Christ/God. The number 1000 need not be literal as can be seen from various scriptures, Ps 50:10, Ps 84:10, Ps 91:7... But still it is countable. Whereas eternal and everlasting indicate uncountable.

Those who suffer with Christ (2Ti 2:12) will definitely reign with Christ for ever and ever (eternally), not just a 1000 years.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

The kingdom of Christ is eternal:


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Even the very first time "Kingdom of God" is mentioned (prophesied) in the Bible, it is stated it is for ever (eternally).

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

I am sitting with Christ in heavenly places NOW, Are you, my futurist friend?

God has not left me at raising me from the dead at baptism, He went a step further:

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Just as I am writing this, seated on my rusted, metal folding chair, God has made me sit in heavenly places with Christ in heavenly places!

Christ has made me king and priest:

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Sorry, my futurist friend, none of the above scriptures are in future tense. They are in past tense or present perfect tense (Cherry picking favorite versions won't help either, because almost every known translation have them in past tense or present perfect tense). It is high time you get your grammar skills right.


In Christ
Tomsan Kattackal